What makes a relationship truly divine? For spiritual teachers Matt and Joy Kahn, a divine partnership is far more than a union of hearts—it’s a sacred commitment to grow together, anchored in mutual respect, emotional freedom, and spiritual alignment. In this heartfelt conversation, they explore what sets divine partnerships apart from traditional relationships, share insights into their own journey, and offer practical wisdom for cultivating deeper connections with ourselves, others, and the divine.

Whether you're seeking clarity in your relationships or simply curious about what it means to partner with purpose, their reflections illuminate a path to love that transcends the ordinary.

How do you define a divine partnership and how does it differ from traditional relationships?

Matt: A divine partnership is not just about connecting with or building a relationship with someone you desire, but with someone you desire growing with. It’s about realizing that when our attraction goes beyond the physical level—when we connect emotionally, mentally, and spiritually—we’re saying yes to partnering on a path where we walk through life together.

We learn to merge our energies as a way to step deeper into unity consciousness. It becomes about building a relationship that helps us both step into higher versions of ourselves—essentially, who we’re meant to be.

Joy: Yes, I love that! And I think the question, “What makes a divine relationship different?” naturally leads to another question: “What is it if it’s not divine?” Of course, there’s some level of the divine working in all relationships, but I’d say what truly defines a divine partnership is the readiness and willingness to move beyond surface-level connections.

It’s about letting go of relationships that just “look good on paper”—the ones that check the boxes or fulfill some ideal. Instead, we’re willing to live in the ideal by surrendering to an experience that flows through us, rather than something our minds try to control.

Matt: Exactly. And often, relationships that aren’t a divine partnership will be some degree of a transactional relationship. There’s this idea of a “checklist”—this person is the opposite of my ex who hurt me, or this person fulfills a specific need. We tend to enter relationships as a means to an end.

But in divine partnership, there’s no transaction. There’s no assumption that the expectations we place on someone are automatically their reality. Instead, we give each other the space to be fully sovereign. It’s not just about desiring someone but desiring to grow with them.

And I think there’s often a misunderstanding about growth in relationships. People might think that growing together means constantly triggering each other, but I don’t see it that way. In fact, constant triggering can indicate a transactional relationship.

Calling constant triggering “growth” can be a way of bypassing the fact that the relationship might not be the right match. True growth in a divine partnership allows both people the opportunity to bring their best qualities into the relationship. It’s about opportunities to evolve together, not just rehashing old traumas or wounds.

Joy: Absolutely. And when we talk about triggering, it’s important to remember that healing often needs to take place first. It’s hard to grow in a relationship when you’re still in a state of healing something unstable. That doesn’t mean a relationship with triggers is doomed; it just means that that relationship is currently in a state of healing. The healing aspect has to navigated first and foremost before you can fully step into the divine partnership.

Matt: Right, triggers will arise even in divine partnerships. But there is misconception that if we are constantly triggering each other, it must mean tremendous growth. We almost need the trigger as a signpost that we are moving in the right direction, but in a divine partnership, the healing that occurs is by the energy of each other bringing the best out of one another.

How did you know your union was a divine partnership, and how might someone else recognize this in their relationship? 

Joy: That’s such a great question, and I think it’s one that comes from the mind when it’s trying to understand things when partnership is truly something that is meant to be felt and experienced. Divine partnership is, in many ways, beyond explanation. But if I were to try to frame it for the mind, I’d say it’s the relationship where you feel an immediate pull to be of service together.

It’s not just about what you get from the relationship—it’s about creating something bigger together. Whether it’s through family, creativity, career, or any other shared purpose, there’s this undeniable drive to live life together in a way that transcends personal gain.

Matt: I love how you put that. I’d add that a divine partnership is an equal balance of passion and comfort. Too much passion without comfort can lead to a relationship where egos are attracted to each other. Things can become spicy under certain conditions and yet their personalities trigger each other in an adversarial way. It’s intense, but unstable.

On the other hand, too much comfort without passion can turn the relationship into more of a familial or platonic dynamic. You might find yourself in archetypes like parent-child or sibling relationships.

In a divine partnership, the passion doesn’t get in the way the comfort, and the comfort doesn’t extinguish the passion. There’s a perfect balance. It’s funny because you always hear people say, “You’ll know when you’ve found the right one,” and we tend to dismiss that as vague advice. But when Joy and I met, we both just knew.

It’s some of the silliest advice and it’s also the best advice. Still, it’s true and one way to “check the math,” so to speak is to ask yourself: Is there as much passion as there is comfort? Or is one overpowering the other? That can give you some clarity.

Joy: Yes, and we often teach about the four pillars of relationships, which are:

1. Your relationship with yourself.

2. Your relationship with others.

3. Your relationship with the divine.

4. Your relationship with the environment.

When these areas are healed and balanced, it opens up the opportunity to be of service in a divine relationship. If you’re in a relationship while working on healing these pillars and find that, at the end of the healing, you still choose each other, that’s a strong indicator of a divine partnership. And if, through healing, you realize the relationship no longer aligns, that’s okay too. That means it was a healing relationship, not necessarily a divine partnership.

Matt: Any relationship has the potential to be divine or transactional—it all depends on what aspects of self are meeting itself in the presence of another. That’s where discernment and self-awareness come into play. It’s about asking: Who am I being in this relationship? What kind of relationships do I want to build? And are the people in my life reflections of the kind of relationships I want in my life, or do I need to course correct?

Many people seek a deeper connection with the divine in their daily lives and relationships. How can someone begin to cultivate this connection in meaningful and practical ways? 

Matt: The essence of connecting with the divine is about building a relationship—both with divinity and with yourself. When we speak of "relationship," it’s not just about the external; it’s about asking: How do I build a relationship with myself in order to turn my heart into a door where the divine can enter my life and this world more frequently?

The starting point is self-love. But this is not about spoiling the inner child, it’s about asking yourself: what are the actions I wish people would have taken in my presence that would have made me feel seen, admired and respected? And really, what are the words I did not hear enough or at all? It’s about starting to say these things to yourself because the subconscious mind doesn’t know the difference between hearing those words from someone else or saying them to yourself. Over time, you can begin to establish a relationship with the divine by saying loving, supportive affirming words to yourself. As you build a practice of speaking lovingly to yourself, you realize these are the very words the divine is always sharing with you. In this way, your voice becomes the divine's microphone, sharing its highest wisdom not only with yourself but also with the world.

Joy: That’s so beautifully put. Self-love is such a layered practice—it grows with us as we grow. For those who meditate, practice yoga, or engage in other spiritual disciplines, it’s important to see the divine as something we invite into our daily lives, not just during practice.

We become living embodiments of divinity. This is the shift: moving from “visiting” the divine in moments of stillness to being in relationship with it, allowing it to infuse every aspect of our lives.

Matt: When we relate to ourselves and others through self-love, mindfulness, compassion and embodiment, we naturally start treating others as reflections of the divine. It’s important to practice discernment as well. While every person is an expression of divinity, not every connection is meant to be deep or long-lasting.  We are all the divine, but we are all at different stages of refinement, embodiment and mastery.

Discernment helps us see which relationships are aligned with our highest good and which are not. As we greet others with the respect due to their divine essence, we can also observe how they treat us. This allows us to determine who we want to bring closer into our lives.  As we deepen our love for ourselves, we not only create a closer connection with the divine but also become more attuned to the divine in others. And from that place of discernment, we choose relationships that support our growth and reflect the love and light we are cultivating within ourselves.

What would you say is the greatest skill you cultivated during your time alone that has brought harmony to your divine partnership? 

Matt: For me, it was my willingness to let everything go, even to the point of experiencing a symbolic death. I spent many years imagining who my wife would be, holding onto this fantasy of her in my mind. At some point, I realized that I was in an astral relationship with that fantasy, and fantasies can only exist in the realm of fantasy. I wanted to be married in reality, so I had to open up space for something real by letting go of that imagined version.

Before we met, I was guided to understand that in order to live in the highest state of commitment, service, detachment, and harmony with my beloved, I needed to acknowledge that everything that comes together will, at some point, be unraveled. I was told to process the death of my beloved—the death of the fantasy of her—before I even met her.

I went through the process of letting that fantasy die, even embracing the possibility that I might never be in a relationship. I grieved and purged the loss of a wife I hadn’t yet met. On my side of reality, this created a profound space of detachment. The fantasy of meeting my wife and loving her was completely gone. Coming through that birth and death of expectation, I was ready to either be one with myself or to share that oneness with her, from a place of deep inner freedom.

Sometimes, we think creations are born, and we fear their death. In truth, you often have to go through a death to create the space for something greater to be born. By allowing every idea of what my relationship "should" be to completely die, I made space for what was truly meant to be.

Joy: I experienced a similar process, which began with the death of a loved one 20 years before I met Matt. That loss brought me face-to-face with the reality that, no matter how deeply we love, there will always be partings. Accepting that truth and learning not to fear it led to my greatest growth: the development of discernment.

I came to understand that just because I could love deeply or see the light in everyone didn’t mean I needed to be in a relationship with everyone. I began to shift from waiting for a lover to choose me, to developing my own interests.

Previously, because of my insecurities and personal growth process, I often found myself enamored with anyone who showed interest in me. I had to learn that just because someone is kind or appealing doesn’t mean they are the one for me. Developing discernment became essential.

This journey also required me to cultivate self-love. I needed to become comfortable with the idea of being single or sharing my life only with the divine if I didn’t meet the one. Ultimately, Matt and I arrived at the same awareness, though through different paths—all rooted in the willingness to let go.

Matt: People often resist letting go because they want to keep their desires alive in their minds. But desires that live only in the mental realm can’t manifest in the physical realm. Letting go creates the space for what’s destined for you to come through.  And that’s the true meaning of surrender—making peace with the “death” of an idea so that you can experience the birth of something real. It’s not always easy, but it’s the most reliable path to aligning with the divine and living in harmony with life’s flow.

What was the greatest skill, pattern, or practice that hindered you from experiencing a divine partnership? Also, what do you think is the biggest thing that hinders the collective from building divine partnerships? 

Matt: One of the biggest things that hinders the collective is what I call the "Apathy of Options." Imagine you're shopping for an outfit. You might think that visiting more shops gives you more options, but the more you consider, the harder it becomes to commit to one choice and the less satisfying that choice will feel. This habit extends beyond shopping—it’s a metaphor for relationships and life.

For example, you might sit down at a restaurant with ten menu options and choose a kale salad. In another scenario, you’re at a place with just three options, and one is still the kale salad. Strangely, the salad feels more satisfying in the second scenario because you didn’t exhaust yourself with too many choices.

The ego often creates a false sense of safety in "window shopping," whether it’s for partners, teachings, or solutions. The act of considering options can feel productive, but it delays commitment and intimacy. To truly receive what’s meant for us, we must let go of this endless deliberation and dare to live, even if it means making mistakes.

Joy: I completely agree. This habit of collecting options often leads to people holding onto relationships or items, hoping they’ll transform into what they’re looking for. It’s like keeping a piece of clothing in the closet "just in case." The instant gratification of acquiring something, whether it’s a partner or an object, often comes at the expense of truly being present with it.

Many of us find ourselves addicted to the process of considering rather than committing. This creates emotional clutter—closets full of relationships or experiences that don’t align with what we truly desire. And when our "closet" is full, there’s no space left for the divine gifts that are meant for us.

Matt: Exactly. And when we attach ourselves to too many options, it’s often rooted in the ego’s misunderstanding of choice as a form of control. The ego seeks control to compensate for feeling controlled by it’s past, it’s pains or traumas.

Joy: This desire for perfection or "getting it right" feeds the illusion.  When I was looking for my dress, I had a fantasy in my mind. But the dress that fit me best—the one I said "I do" in—wasn’t the one I imagined. I knew it was right because I allowed myself to let go of my preconceived notions and fully see the truth.  It goes back to how do you know, you know. You know because you are willing to go back and completely eliminate any second-guessing trying to get it perfect.

Matt: That’s why we renew our vows every few months! It’s our way of embracing imperfection and celebrating the present moment. Life isn’t about getting it perfect the first time—it’s about showing up and saying "I do" to what’s real, over and over again.

For someone who isn’t in a relationship but wants to create space for divine partnership, what advice would you give? 

Matt: The idea of "manifesting relationships" is tricky because it can create unrealistic expectations. Manifestation isn’t about controlling when something enters or exits your life. It’s about partnering with a divine force and aligning with your highest values of self-love, compassion, and discernment.

Instead of trying to manifest a specific partner, focus on manifesting the highest version of yourself. Become the person who naturally attracts divine partnerships by embodying love, awareness, and empowerment. The relationships you seek will naturally align when you live from this space.

Joy: Exactly. Start by looking at the relationships you already have and experience them through the lens of divine connection. This shift in perspective can deepen your current relationships and prepare you for future ones.

Many people think they need to find someone to complete them, but divine partnership begins with falling in love with your own life. When we cultivate self-love and gratitude, we stop chasing what we don’t have and start appreciating what’s already here.

Matt: The misunderstanding with manifestation often stems from impatience. People think, "If I want it badly enough, the universe will deliver it sooner." But manifestation doesn’t work like that. It’s a partnership with a divine force, much like gravity. You can’t control it, but you can flow with it.

And there’s no shame in the process. If something isn’t happening as quickly as you’d like, it doesn’t mean you’ve "failed" at manifesting. It’s simply part of the journey. Divine timing always has a role to play.

When it comes to manifestation, many people believe that their thoughts directly shape their outcomes, leading them to feel the need to tightly control their thinking.

Matt: I think controlling thoughts often exacerbates the problem and creates more mental illness. Here’s a perspective I’ll share boldly: if someone has a thought like, “Go punch your neighbor,” it’s not about the thought itself—it’s about being aware of that impulse and choosing to align with your values instead of acting on it.

For people who live impulsively or struggle to reflect on their actions, they might need to cultivate thought awareness to pause and make value-based decisions. But for most of us, we don’t need to control thoughts; we just need to recognize that we’re aware of them—much like hearing a song on someone else’s radio.

You didn’t choose the song; you didn’t write it. You’re simply aware of it. Similarly, as empathic beings, we often “hear” the collective energy of the world. When we start to see thoughts as not necessarily ours but something moving through us, we can stop identifying with them.

Instead of saying, “This is my thought,” we can say, “Thank you, energy field, for showing me what I’m helping clear from the collective.” That’s a transformative shift.

Joy: This truly lies at the heart of everything we're doing with our work right now. We want to help people embrace the human experience as spiritual beings. We aim to be present in this body, feeling peace and ease with the natural processes taking place. By focusing on the relationships we have, our work is about guiding people to cultivate the most divine relationship with themselves. It’s this divine connection that activated our work together, enabling us to serve in a way that feels more amplified than what we were able to achieve individually.

Every situation is guiding us—through our thoughts, our responses to those thoughts—leading us back to love, back to the divine. When we learn to direct our awareness in this way, we gain freedom from the need to push thoughts away or control them.

What’s been the most transformative awakening in your partnership?

Joy: For me, it has been the opportunity to course correct. After you heal, you tend to feel really excited about life. I was loving what I was doing. There were parts of my journey that had been painful, and I had healed them, but I hadn't discovered what it was like to really course-correct them.

So, to be able to have these challenging relationships that I've healed with—family, past partners, friendships—and then be able to come into our relationship, where together we’re actually walking into new friendships, a new relationship together, a new way of operating in career... all of that became a new story. And I didn’t even know it was possible.

What I mean by course-correct is actually playing out the higher experience that I thought was gone. I realized that I really could have new experiences like that. So, for me, that was incredibly mind-blowing, because I had come to such peace and ease with, Well, this is my life. I love it as it is. And if it never gets anything more than this, I’m great. And if it does, that’s just icing on the cake… I just didn’t know how good the icing was. I really didn’t.

Matt: For me, it’s the realization that what’s good for “us” is good for “me.” Before this partnership, I learned to prioritize my truth, but in this divine partnership, I’ve embraced the shared truth. If I wouldn’t want to harm my beloved, why would I harm myself? This mutual accountability deepens integrity and fosters unity consciousness.

When we’re in alignment, it’s divine partnership. When we’re out of alignment, it risks becoming codependency. Navigating that delicate balance has been transformative.

For those attending your retreats, what can they expect to experience to help cultivate this kind of connection?

Joy: Our retreats are entirely co-created with the participants. We guide people to experience divine relationships—not just intellectually but energetically and emotionally.  The way we work together is always based on and in support of whoever is there. So everyone who finds themselves at this retreat is going to experience a collective unfolding of our teachings real time in the moment. That's something that's incredibly sacred about the work because it means that if you're there and you're in that experience, then we are custom creating it with you on the spot based on what's happening for you energetically, emotionally and mentally. We're going to help bring experiences of not just the knowledge or the wisdom shared of bringing your relationships into a more divine experience, but we're going to bring you felt experience of what it is to be in divine relationship with each other and with us in that experience.

Matt: This is not just listening to people talk to you about you; it’s allowing yourself to experience a very interactive way of stepping into the vibration of divine partnership that we speak of, that we transmit in the body. So, this is a chance to come as one version of yourself or, for couples, to come as one version of themselves and to leave very different. We’re so blessed and honored to serve each and every heart that is coming to the retreat. We’re so blessed to be with you and serve you in the name of love.

How can embracing divine partnership help navigate challenging relationships?

Matt: I think meeting people where they are takes on new depth. When considering if we’re in a transactional or divine relationship, we have to ask ourselves: Is the person capable or interested in a divine relationship? If not, what kind of experience do I want to have? Am I willing to meet them where they are without expecting them to be at my level of growth? If not, will I punish them or myself for it?

Recognizing that we are all at different stages allows us to avoid personalizing it. Communication is key. Are we actually communicating with the people in our lives or just judging and perceiving without expressing how we feel? It's up to them to decide if they agree with you, but your job is to communicate—not to change them.

When we’re not communicating, the answer is to communicate. If someone unintentionally hurts you, simply saying, "That hurt my feelings" can open the door for understanding. It doesn’t have to be judgment—it can be intuition. How a relationship begins often foreshadows how it will unfold. If it feels off in the beginning, trust your intuition, but still remain open to communication.

In today’s world, we often use boundaries instead of communicating. But setting boundaries should be accompanied by clear communication. For example, if you’re meditating in another room, let your partner know so expectations are clear. Use your words to create understanding and connection, allowing everyone to have the best experience possible. Communication, not just boundaries, is the key.

Joy: I think boundaries are often tied to trauma. When we experience something, we have an internal response that wants to be expressed outwardly. Communication is key in this process. If I'm in a situation where my communication isn't being met, it gives me a clear indication of the next steps in the relationship. But if I only internalize it without communicating, I don’t know where things stand. This creates a disconnect between me and others, which isn't what we want. We want to flow with life and let it guide us to where we need to be, rather than isolating ourselves.

Matt: Some people might say they don't need to communicate because they're intuitive and already know what others are thinking or feeling. The truth is, intuition is for your own experience—it's about what's good for you. It's not about knowing someone else’s thoughts or feelings; that's projection. Intuition provides insight that helps you navigate your own path, but to truly understand someone else, you have to ask and communicate with them. Even if you can tune into their energy and feel their heart is blocked, it doesn’t necessarily reflect their awareness. Communication is how you truly understand someone’s experience in the present moment, rather than projecting what you think they’re feeling or becoming. Intuition helps guide you to communicate more effectively; it is not a replacement for communication.

For those healing from trauma, is it better to focus on your own healing versus trying to bring in a divine partner?

Matt: If you bring in a partner before you've fully healed, you're either going to recreate the same patterns with that partner, or you'll subconsciously expect them to provide an experience that counteracts the trauma you're still working through.

Joy: What can be even more challenging is bringing in someone who helps, supports, or even rescues you while you're healing. Once you heal from the trauma and no longer need rescuing, you may find that you no longer want to be with your partner. This can lead to a misunderstanding of why people come into our lives and what we expect from them. Focusing on healing our traumas is crucial in order to better discern the right relationships for us.

Matt: Imagine telling someone you're in a relationship with, "I think it's really the traumatized parts of me that were attracted to this interaction." For many, facing these kinds of conversations is difficult, and some will avoid them, afraid of speaking their truth. They may feel an obligation to stay or owe the other person something. But the key is to heal first, or make healing the primary step. When we come into contact with our natural state of wholeness and well-being, we begin to attract relationships that reflect not just someone’s potential, but someone's living reality of well-being and wholeness.

Should someone focus on healing, but be open to a divine partnership if it comes into their reality?

Joy: It comes back to asking yourself, am I willing to discern what’s actually happening here? Am I looking to be rescued in this moment? Am I perceiving this relationship as something I need right now, or is it truly empowering for me? Are we experiencing a genuine connection of love, rather than simply fulfilling a need? This is where the process begins—getting curious without blame or judgment, and being honest about the root of my attraction to this person. The answer will be clear if we truly get honest with ourselves.

Matt: The question is, "Okay, I'm attracted to this person. Why am I attracted to this person?" What is it that's drawing me in? It's important to understand whether it's values, past pain, or patterns in play. Are our egos attracted to each other? Does it feel like all aspects of myself are clicking into place? Are they matching a fantasy or a role I'm trying to cast in my life? People often avoid asking this question because they're afraid that if they acknowledge it, it might make the attraction go away. There's also a fear of missing out, which is tied to superstition—the belief that we don't truly understand how the universe works. But we don't need to live in superstition or fear. We can be open. For example, you might go to a restaurant and already know what you'll order, but you're open enough to look at the menu again, just to make sure.

Being open is great, but sometimes people are too open and don't take the time to inquire, like asking, "Why am I drawn to this person?" It's not earth-shattering to acknowledge that someone is attracted to you, but it's important to take a moment to assess if it’s truly a match. If we're so afraid of being alone that we avoid asking these questions, we risk filling our lives with experiences we don't actually want, instead of the ones we truly desire.

Joy: And if we find ourselves in that situation, there's a loving grace in knowing we can always clean the closet again, and that's okay. I may not have the answer now and might be afraid to ask the question, but eventually, I'll know the answer.

Matt: Yes, you can always start over, but it’s time to truly pick up the pieces and put things together in a new way. It's about not just learning from our experiences, but daring to make choices that create new patterns and behaviors to explore.

Is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up? Something just for the attendees at the upcoming course? 

Matt: Absolutely. We’re beyond excited to come to the Sivananda Ashram in the Bahamas. It’s such an honor to connect with and serve each of you who are joining us for this retreat.

Joy: Yes, we’re so humbled to be a part of your growth, your expansion, and your journey. Thank you for inviting us to walk alongside you in this transformative process—in the name of love. We love you all so much.